A little extra??? Hahah, thats the problem, they are usually at least 1000 dollars overpriced, alot of times even 2000 or more over price. So that is a big N O

From what I've seen in MN. There's only a couple "retail" shops. The prices are higher, but I think Tony has it right at around 20-30%. This includes "shopping" and repairs, 100% functional pin and from what I've seen a short warranty period of 30-90 days.

When you go to AL your gonna pay more. Luckily Aaron is a pretty good tech. BUT...AL dictates how much time Aaron spends on games. But you price hike is about right. When you get to know Al better you will realize you can walk into his place cash in hand and say whats in....."BACK" Al gets allot of tire kickers.

John at pinball plus is a nice fellow his stuff is more "Routed" so to speak than Al but still deals can be had from him. Once you dig in with the locals you will see allot of the MN guys are HIGH end collectors. There are lots of others as well. The circle is small but games do change hands at good prices around here.

The plus about retail-- is the game will be 100% working.
It will come with warranty.
Will be clean (hopefully tore down and cleaned properly.)
Can find the title of pin your looking for. (they have a good selection to choose)
Can be delivered and set-up ( this is good for newbies)

The negative about retail--the price

Ok here's some pricing from a place by me, if retail was only a couple hundred bucks more, I would buy retail all the time...

Last Action Here - 2995
DE Simpsons - 2995
Street Fighter 2 - 2495
Lost in Space - 3795
World Poker Tour - 4495
Police Force - 2995
WCS94 - 3495

All those prices are completely ridiculous. I'm sure there are some retailers that are a little more sane obviously, but for the most part, pins are WAY overpriced from any retailer...

I've never bought retail or paid MSRP. I've purchased one NIB from Jack, a couple through local collectors, and the other at auction. The local retail guys I'm aware of are generally $1-3k over what you might see a private collector sell for.

I would actually pay a retailer a bit more if their machines were in good shape and they offered some kind of warranty. And generally they are and they do, but the markup is insane. I get that they have to pay the mortgage and feed their children, but so do I!

Generally speaking I'm guessing the average collector isn't really their target market anyway. They are after the guy who wants to pay for the convenience a retail store can provide; delivery, selection and warranty.

The game will be working 100% from a retailer?? That is not 100% true at all...maybe sometimes yes, but not 100%

Lots of retailers sell crap, and are full of shit, like a used car salesman.

There are lots of good ones too, but you don't fool me in saying that the games will be exactly as they say :/

I know one with a track record of threatening physical violence towards buyers who bought a 'shopped' and 'working' pin, and found it was neither.

I have a horrible back, so I can only buy from people that will deliver and set up in my basement for me. It's worth a premium for that to me. I have probably "overpaid" by about $500 on each pin according to what others are willing to pay.

Ya those are really high even for Retail.

LAH should be at best 2300ish
Street fighter 2 1800-2100 Retail
Lost in Space 2695-2995
WPT 3494-3895 if mint
Police Force 1500-1800
WCS - 2495-2695

Edit: These are just examples of pricing, some of which I have sold in the last 6 Months. I dont have any of these instock at this time.

I paid 1400 for my WCS94 from a collector friend. I would pay 1900 for one that's not a big deal. But 3495? haha...NEVER..

Yes there are good retailers out there, certainly none around me with decent pricing...

Sounds about right.. I remember seeing SOME of those. I DO recall these:

FT in great shape for 2395
HUO TSSP for 4395
TSSP in good shape 3295

Not horrible on pricing.. you pay for the "friendly" service... Actually you pay for Aaron and Al to clean em up and get em running 100%. And I think they offer a warranty.

-j

One thing that sucks major about AL's the cigar smoke eats into everything.

We're a retailer (actually, an operator that sells pins, but that's being picky), and our prices aren't anywhere near that stupid. Maybe if you want to buy a recent Stern, because those are machines that can still go out on the route, but 3.5k for WCS? Geeze. Ours are 2.2k, and you can probably talk my sales guy down to 2. Less if you're local. Then again, I've heard that the guy across town who only does pins sells stuff way over inflated. I guess the lesson is shop around, and buy from operators?

One of the first times I talked to him... Granted I was the definition of a "tire kicker", but he sharply answered my question with a single word. Lit his rather large cigar and strolled away.

SO MUCH for the no smoking in doors at businesses laws here in MN!..

Retail has to pay overhead. When I sell something alot of times my labor ends up being free. 20-30 hours of someone's time doesn't come cheap.

On the other hand I love the people on *here* that buy retail and expect to recoup not only what they paid but the gas or shipping as well.

Hell yes I have bought retail, I do not mean buying hyper inflated prices on Ebay that have been listed for 120 days. but from a store with a warranty you bet.

I have bought from a home buyer at "retail" what is retail anyway? Mr Pinballs price guide? It is all subjective. If a pin is 20% higher than others listed out there? What if it is 20% better shape? I have paid $1200 for an F14 tomcat........but it have a flawless playfield. I have bought a Fishtales for $2200 which might be called retail 2 years ago, but it had new side art, no insert wear. At the same time a buddy of mine passed on it and sent it my way, because he found a Fishtales for $1500. After new side art, boat ramp, misc plastics, rubber, LEDs, and a shop job he had $2300 and about 20 hours in it, plus he has stickers on his fish....... I will pay retail all day if thats how it works out. Sometimes it is frustrating when people don't recognize the value of a restored machine, they call it overpaying...

Now if machines are in like condition, the retail location allows you to just go pick up a machine whenever you want it, the ability to shop for what ever you want and to try multiple machines. To offer this service and to pay the overhead of having a retail place is absolutely worth 20 to 30%. Plus a warranty is worth something don't you think?

So to all of the scenarios above, Yes I have bought retail, I have bought low and restored the machine and sold at retail as well. NO I have never bought a machine at a really high price on Ebay, accept a Monopoly for $2000 shipped to my door.

So, again what is retail? Condition dictates price, I do think more and more collectors/players are realizing this, and are paying more for very nice machines.

Just my 2 cents, but there are machines that people would have told me I was crazy to pay that price, but inversely would say I was smart to buy the cheap one and restore it. Even though after restoration it cost the same. I love the bargain, but I also love retail (Buy it and play it now!!!)

Edit: oh and I also love that there are retailers, this is great for pinball, especially new pinheads that need full service, we all started there.

Thanks, that was my goal, I just want people to be objective. I hate posts where people automatically judge the person because of price (IE price police), or dis someone because they paid too much....this is supposed to be fun.

QUOTE OF THE YEAR!

Read those words, and keep them close to your heart, and wallet next time you think about buying retail.

I had a used car salesman retail experience with my first pin. From that purchase I learned alot about what to do and what not to do when buying and dealing with a retail seller.

"1) I was stupid and overpaid to a local guy that was obviously not a part of the community because he WAY overcharged a naive new buyer"

Just because he "overcharged" you, doesn't mean he wasn't/isn't part of the community.

I have seen lots of RGP/Pinside people trying to get (make) as much as they can, regardless of the RGP/Pinside approved price.

I have seen on more than one occasion someone buying a machine advertised on RGP, then trying to flip it (for more) a couple of days later...on RGP. Of course he got called on it.

Pinball is a supply & demand market. So prices vary wildly based on those 2 factors. Combine that with "trying to make as much money as possible" business strategy, and you get taken advantage of if you haven't done your homework.

I just sold my JP, several pinsiders enquired about price (before I posted it). Most of them didn't even respond when I emailed them back. I assume that they wanted a great JP for way less than I was asking, or they would have at least responded back. So the pricing gouging goes both ways; individuals trying to buy at less than market so they can brag about what they got; and those that try to make it on the other end.

The guy that bought my JP, told me about a local guy (in south bay) that posts both here and on RGP that buys and sells machines. He bought a JP (that my guy tried to get) for ~$1k; cleaned it and then offered it for sale for ~2.2k. Not sure what he had to do for that, but that’s a nice profit. It’s sold, so he was apparently able to work both ends of the pricing spectrum.

I guess my message is this, Pinball has moved from being a hobbyist endeavor to a business venture. People who what to make their partial/entire living off Pinball, need to make a lot of money off each transaction. The best way to deal is to try to work with your friends and pay reasonable prices.

Robert

That flat-out won't happen unless it's one of those "crude oil" games like MM, AFM, SS, or MB that will jump another couple hundred by this summer... if someone pays retail and wants to sell, they are probably going to go into the red.

Absolutely and totally agree with you in every since of the word. Two guys here in Dayton - man - you better run if you even SEE their store names.... not going to post them because I really don't feel like being sued for "slander" , but let's just say this:

1. First guy sold me my first JP for $2200 when it should have been more like $1200 for the condition it was in...

2. Second guy tried to sell me a HS2 for $3000....$3000 - man, I laugh just looking at it...and what I loved is here is how this went. Back in Feb, he knew I wanted JP more than any other machine so it was going to end up being "around $2700-$3000", then he told me he got both HS2 and JP in ...now I had JUST gotten rid of that hideous frankenstein JP junker, and so I wanted to switch gears and go with HS2. Before he knew that, he quoted me that JP would be "around $2700-$3000 and HS2 will be more on the lower end of 'Your price bracket, J, of $2000 - $3000'"...so when I get there and look at both machines and express to him I'm more interested in HS2...dude RIGHT THERE he starts going into "ALL THE WORK" that went into restoring HS2 and the prices literally were swapped right in front of me... To say the very least I walked right out of there...

Some BS right there, and I have banned local Dayton retailers for life after that lil "bait n' switch" tactic...even TRY to burn me like that and you're done in my book...

Some retailers who have a good reputation via word of mouth - I will at least call, talk to, and consider...but locally that bridge wasn't burned - it was NUKED.

Pinball retailers that try to rape me financially are right up there with gas prices, crude oil, and car insurance...but those are other stories...

*breathes a bit* Life is good

Hey, Ouch man!

I paid up for my SS from a retailer... I wanted a winter project to work on and wasn't willing to wait to find a "deal".

I think that this has almost as much to do with rising pin prices as anything, especially considering how many new people appear to be getting into this hobby.

It seems that there have always been both components involved. With the recent increase in demand, I think there has been a similar rise in the number of people who sell pins purely for profit.

+1.

I buy retail as well. I figure it's nice to have someone fix it if something goes wrong.

Would you pay $3500 for a shopped Scared Stiff from a retailer?

Honestly I prefer the flippers to the hoarders. That mentality seems so toxic to me and I will never get it. If someone wants to buy and sell games so be it, at least they're getting into the hands of someone who wants them.

I also don't have a problem with retail shop prices. We pinheads put no value on our labor whatsoever. I have an IJ that has so many hours in it that it's silly. A shop would have to ask 10k for that thing just to cover time and materials. To paraphrase Chris Rock, "I'm not saying they should, but I understand."

We also keep them at our homes, which is an expense unrelated to pins. Plus they have to grab a good inventory before the storefront would even be noticed. Licenses, payroll, leases. These shops have enormous overhead from the get go. I doubt the ones I've seen are making what most of us would consider a good living.

We're at the far end of the spectrum of a niche pastime. We seek out "deals" while putting no value on the significant time just searching for them. These shops get games into the hands of people who might otherwise never have them.

I bought two pins from GAP, and was very satisfied with both transactions.

I started out retail and eventually started dealing with collectors. I think that's pretty common.
If you get the right retailer I think it can make sense. If you get the wrong collector, you can also be up the creek.
I payed $2500 retail for a very nice TAF maybe 5 years ago and $3500 for IJ about 4 years ago. Maybe a bit high at that time for both titles, but I have not had major issues with either machine and neither one needed much to get them tuned into top shape.
I just bought a routed and unshopped FT for $1700 from a retailer, but I knew what I was getting. The cabinet has fade but the playfield is fully covered in Mylar and has zero wear.
I tend to have a bit more trust when buying sight unseen from a brick and mortar retailer.

Explains how you afford 9 pins if you're a car insurance salesman .

Just kidding - no offense meant, brother!

I like the idea of having a pin come with a warranty. I REALLY like the idea of getting a pin that is "plug and play", shopped, clean, awesome. And I was ready to buy retail.. TODAY.. but... I called on Monday, to see if they carried the pin. "$1795" was the price.

Tuesday: I was ready to buy, cash in hand for a pin. I called to make sure the pin was still there. The price went up 200$.. in ONE day. Thats more than 10% increase. Anyways, I still went to look at it hoping the smell of brand new $100s would lighten the mood... and was met with outright defiance. I took out the crisp $100 bills and showed him I was ready to buy... 1995 was the final price "dont matter if you pay cash or credit". Etc. Well, I only had 1800 so it was no deal. I figured the initial price was what he was willing to take. But he would not budge from the 1995 asking price.

I get having to pay over head, taxes, blah blah blah.. I ran a business for the better part of my earlier years. But why $200 in 1 day? Did he suddenly do $200 worth of work on it? NO. When I saw it today, STILL in shrink, Dust on Shrink, sitting on the ground in his storage room. I guess he jacked up the price because he thought it was 2 different people calling (ie increased demand) or maybe it was the same guy calling twice (ie desperation).. either way I call it sh*tty.

-j

In a heartbeat! Sold! Especially if I don't have to wait 3 months to find and drive six hours to pick it out of some guys basement.

Dealers take note:

c1sCa.jpg

You.

I was not making any particular negative aspersions one way or the other, but my comments didn't have anything to do with "hoarders".

I've bought several pins from a "flipper" as many would call him and I will continue to do so if I can't locate a better deal. It should be noted that a better deal involves a lot more than just the lowest price, and the service and support that I get means a lot as well. It's all about developing relationships and knowing who you respect and can trust. Some people don't care about that. They think that *any* "flipper" is born of the devil himself, which is ridiculous.

That said, I *do* know flippers that I have absolutely zero respect for and will call them out whenever given the opportunity. These are the dishonest morons who don't know crap about pinball, hold themselves out as just a fellow "collector", and misrepresent the pins that they sell.

collectors>flippers>dealers

Although I don't know about the order of the last two for sure.

BIG No!!
Here's a local dealer near me that wants:

EATPM: $2900
RFM: $2900
Maverick: $2000
Black Knight: $1400

Now, if the BK is nice, than maybe, but highly unlikely.

I think it's at least fair to say that, like collectors, not all dealers are creates equal.
I've dealt with some I'd like to forget, and others that were genuinely nice guys trying to make a living. The good ones offered honest appraisals of what they were selling and plenty of support if anything ever went wrong. For those of us without a wide range of local collectors to deal with, or a wide selection of pins in general, finding a good dealer is sometimes the only option.

WTF are you talking about?

You bought your one and only pin from a Retailer!

*gets popcorn ready* here we go...

Prices will always go up and down and if you can wait till another down turn/panic the better

3 maybe 3 1/2 years ago? C-list near me was packed with pinball machines for sale
and we were in the thick of it with tales of buys and score reports on forum.
Hearing members making buys with the thrill of the hunt made me want to buy a few more games I didn't have room for.
Take your time and wait ....... use discipline fill your war che$t up with cash
and when you see a few good deals come up........ BANG!
go in heavy and make it hapin captin

OK RobT, what I meant to say was mostly no for retail unless the price seems to be OK. I paid $3800 for my HUO TSPP and I don't regret it. Pat Choy is a very nice guy BTW.