Do you think LCDs will lower the value of DMD pins because the DMD will be seen as old outdated technology? (which it is) Kinda like the what happened to Alpha-numerics and early SS when DMDs came out.
I don't think so, because it ultimately won't improve gameplay. It would also take a lot of games (high production numbers) to really offset prices of vintage of 90's DMD pins. So basically unless a lot of LCD pins are produced that have superior gameplay, it won't happen IMHO.
Yeah, I agree with Honch. The DMD era also ushered in a new era of playfield design and toys. The earliest DMDs really changed the game in pinball.
Considering how few there will be, and how high the prices are, I don't seeing it having much of an impact at all.
I do but well see how well this 1st one takes off. I for one wish I would have gotten in on this game changer.
Bill
every innovation makes pinball a little more interesting, but something as simple as an LCD isn't a game changer (if it were, pinball 2000 would still be produced in some form today).
I like pins from late 80's and early 90's because that's what I played. A pin can have all the bells, whistles, and ramps in the world. what really counts is gameplay.
I think it'll effect value about the same way pinball2000 did.
Post edited by Blakesell : well poop. Toyotaboy beat me to it.
Quoted from FlipperMagician:No, but that would be awesome if it did, for buying at least.
I agree,
Unfortunately for us, gameplay still trumps technology as a buying standpoint-
especially with this new pin-resurgence we've got going here, it is only going to get worse before it gets better...
At least when the dust settles for the next lull, I will be ready this time- with CASH!!!
I think the only way it will affect the value is if the new machines are good enough that they make people that have some of the older more sought after DMD machines sell in order to raise funds and/or make room. More of them on the market will push prices down.
Pins like MM are already seeing their price decline. Early this year they were going for $10K, but lately they've been going in the low $8K range. Not saying this is due to WOZ (or the LCD for that matter) coming out, but I think this sort of trend could continue with other pins if enough desirable new ones come out... LCD or not.
I was going to say...
At least the pins that are surfacing tend to be in better shape than previous years!
More collectors are sacrificing their "babies" in order to purchase the newest machines which is usually always good for buyers.
maybe a better question would be .....do you think online interactive gameplay/tournaments/rewards/trophies will effect the value of dmd games? my answer would be probably.
as to sc's lcd question, i don't think so. if the lcd games were priced at 3500-4500 most definately. but at 6500-7500 as of right now no.
in 5 years when there is enough lcd product in the used market i would expect many dmd games to drop in value. specifically a list games like mm, afm,cv,mb that already fetch woz like prices or higher will drop in value........imho.
Hard to gauge. Most system 11 games had cool ramps and features. Besides Funhouse, they don't really go for big bucks. I think the toys pretty much helped with the price value increases and the DMD machines gained value because of modes with deeper rules, rather than a fancier scoring system.
With new technology, usually comes a greater want for that technology. As newer generations grow up to be collectors, these new LCD's will be what they remember, not the "old" orange DMD machines that we have.
I also would like to see how the new technology is implemented.
So, my guess is the DMD's could go down in value, but I'm not firmly 100% convinced until I start seeing what the new LCD machines can do.
No, there will not be any depreciation of DMD's.
I believe that this COULD lead to a technological pinball trend.
We have had different backglasses through the years:
Painted Backlit (flashers and GI)
Marquee style (Flouresent Backlight)
3D backglasses
I am not a WOZ buyer, but my understanding is WOZ planned:
LCD Backglass with DMD intergrated
From a technogolical viewpoint: This = cheap BLING
In other words, the LCD cost is probably about the same cost of the 3D backglass and eliminate the cost and need of the DMD.
The LCD can do alot more - different backgrounds as you are getting to different stages.
There is ALOT of potential, but it really depends on how much developement that they want to put into it.
Quoted from jarjarisgod:I think the only way it will affect the value is if the new machines are good enough that they make people that have some of the older more sought after DMD machines sell in order to raise funds and/or make room. More of them on the market will push prices down.
Pins like MM are already seeing their price decline. Early this year they were going for $10K, but lately they've been going in the low $8K range. Not saying this is due to WOZ (or the LCD for that matter) coming out, but I think this sort of trend could continue with other pins if enough desirable new ones come out... LCD or not.
I think you are right. The new competition and new pins are making taking away hype from some of the older ones that had sooooo much hype being the best. Its like honda. The owners are what keep the resale so high. So if we have new pins releasing that are good/great, it will drop those older pins that had that idolization down some in the price range as everyone is wanting to buy the new pin.
I hope the LCD works and moves the pin industry along. It is a cool feature that could be used intelligently. Any little thing that helps the pin world, the better. But for my bank accounts sake I hope it drops DMD pin prices
Quoted from northvibe:jarjarisgod said:
I think the only way it will affect the value is if the new machines are good enough that they make people that have some of the older more sought after DMD machines sell in order to raise funds and/or make room. More of them on the market will push prices down.
I agree as well. Btw...anyone been to Vegas lately? All of the slots with lcd screens (i.e. like Hangover) were getting played much more heavily than the traditional wheel slots. Bling works. It's extra entertainment. It's fun to see a move clip when you get a payout on a slot, or get in bonus mode and select something from the screen. While pinball is about the playfield, shot, rules and action - I for one love completing modes to glance up and see the video sequence. Watching someone else play also is more entertaining to see what the video does.
I also love my pinball 2000 so keep that in perspective. Video killed the radio star.
Every pinball before incorporated new technology of the day. Like if you look at a really old gas pump it's like an 80's machine. It only makes sense that new machines would incorporate lcd's. People buy ipads, right. Or, call it the gas pump technology. EM, SS, LCD.
BUT....in a lot of ways pinball 2000 was a mistake. It will be really interesting to see if LCD can be pulled off. Taking it out of the playfield and onto the back box is a huge step forward.
New tech has to go hand in hand with good design.
All depends how good the games are. If the new games are top 10 or even top 20, then people will sell their existing games to buy these, so prices will drop.
But, they really need to be exceptional games.
Quoted from badbilly27:Video killed the radio star
35 years ago a bunch of guys were sitting around talking about how those gas filled tubes could never replace the real feel you get from a reel for scores.
25 years ago guys were talking about how there is no way the DMD will replace the gas displays. They were going to detract from gameplay, too much going on, ect....
Today we are debating LCD v DMD.
If history is an indicator, The DMD will take a huge hit in the future. 20 years from now when we are not able to move these machines around and the next gen starts to be the ones with disposable income, they will want the pins they grew up playing. There are none so it will be a small market and none of the pins will be worth much. Think back when Atari 64 came out. Compare that to a 360 or PS3, worlds apart.
Quoted from firebird:Does anyone anticipate Stern going LCD?
Gomez said that our orange friend is going away in late 2012 or early 2013.
Quoted from absocountry2:35 years ago a bunch of guys were sitting around talking about how those gas filled tubes could never replace the real feel you get from a reel for scores.
25 years ago guys were talking about how there is no way the DMD will replace the gas displays. They were going to detract from gameplay, too much going on, ect....
Today we are debating LCD v DMD.
If history is an indicator, The DMD will take a huge hit in the future. 20 years from now when we are not able to move these machines around and the next gen starts to be the ones with disposable income, they will want the pins they grew up playing. There are none so it will be a small market and none of the pins will be worth much. Think back when Atari 64 came out. Compare that to a 360 or PS3, worlds apart.
Great post.
Quoted from absocountry2:The DMD will take a huge hit in the future. 20 years from now
I don't think so . why ? Because the art work on these new games, is shit !! No one will match the quality of the older SS pins,they are just too cheap now. In 20 years from now ,people will enjoy the art work over photoshop crap.
Jim
If something new comes from it that is seen as superior then yes dmd prices will drop.
Pin2k didn't do it because they never had enough time to work out the kinks. RFM was the T2 of its time. Yes, t2 is a great game, but it is still stupidly shallow even more so then some system 11's. If dmds had stopped there system 11 games would be worth more money as there would be higher demand.
What lcds can add to the game is beyond me, but time willt ell.
All other things being equal, I don't think LCD will add a bunch to the game or game play. I think where the primary differentiation will be is in what can be done with the LCD screen. I think there's much more likely to be video game aspects of these LCD screens that would involve the player playing some of the game on the LCD rather than the pf. I think for some this will enhance the experience/play while others will find it distracting from the pinball play.
Quoted from badbilly27:I agree as well. Btw...anyone been to Vegas lately? All of the slots with lcd screens (i.e. like Hangover) were getting played much more heavily than the traditional wheel slots. Bling works. It's extra entertainment. It's fun to see a move clip when you get a payout on a slot, or get in bonus mode and select something from the screen. While pinball is about the playfield, shot, rules and action - I for one love completing modes to glance up and see the video sequence. Watching someone else play also is more entertaining to see what the video does.
I also love my pinball 2000 so keep that in perspective. Video killed the radio star.
Yes this is just like Dreamcast, 3DO etc. They were too early for their time. And at that time it was cool but expensive, but now that it is common its a big seller. I agree its about bling and keeping peoples attention. If we want new and young people in pinball, they LOVE lcd screens, action, movement, color. For instance the pos game call of duty. The DMD looks old, it is old and is kind of mono color. You want to attract tons of people? have crazy video sequences. Just imagine MM with a LCD backglass and movies of the trolls or dragon, etc. It would get spectators and tons of people excited. The problem is we as in us on this forum, are used to old pin's or DMD's and love the feel, look etc. We don't want the glamour and bling, or maybe we do but dont mind for it? but the future imo is going to be LCD and whatever they can do to make "ADD" people pay attention to it.
Quoted from wizzardz:All other things being equal, I don't think LCD will add a bunch to the game or game play. I think where the primary differentiation will be is in what can be done with the LCD screen. I think there's much more likely to be video game aspects of these LCD screens that would involve the player playing some of the game on the LCD rather than the pf. I think for some this will enhance the experience/play while others will find it distracting from the pinball play.
Ya I think the lcd could bring more video game modes and animations. This doesnt "change" the game, but it adds something more. Or makes players feel that it adds something. Again I think this is a great direction if they want young kids to get back into pin and away from xbox/ps3.
dont see how it could make it lose value due to it cant offer that much more experience to the game.
Don't think Top 10 DMD's will be effected by LCD. They could all go down of course but the only way the Top 10 games will fall massively is if they are replaced by even better games.......bring it on!!
IMHO, if I wanted video I'd go play a video game.
For that matter, I rarely even look up at the DMD except for split seconds (unless play stops and I'm forced to look up play a game on the DMD).
Call me Old School but personally I think the 26" LCD is ridiculous. I love existing size of backbox artwork and think the LCD should have been kept the same size as a current DMD (but that would rule out off the shelf availability; and costs would skyrocket). I don't like the idea of walking past my pins and instead of seeing great artwork I see a bunch of dark TV monitors. I like translites/backglasses lit by 555s & flashers. I like emphasizing areas of the artwork with colored LEDs.
Just because something is changed or new and improved doesn't automatically mean better.
Look at the numerous new car model year examples where the previous year was a nicer design: just change for the sake of change or planned obsolescence. Once perfection is attained I think it makes more sense to only make slight tweaks (why Porsche has kept the basic 911 design the same for over 30 years).
I think pinball perfection was attained by Bally-Williams before being killed off by slot machines. A DMD-sized LCD would have been a reasonable tweak.
Well technically the backglass is pointless to the game. I mean it is art, yes, but its wasted space for game play. And like I said, we as pin enthusiasts like the current and past pins. That is the ideal pin for us, Art work, game play, dmd/score, good pf etc. But with kids having no patience and pin manf's wanting to sell and bring pinball back. There will be no way you'd get them into arcades and on routes with young kids playing unless they bring LCD with some game modes, online connections for scoring or tournaments. New features that actually get younger generations interested. For us...we will always like the classics
I could honestly do without the DMD or LCD.
I like seeing what ball I'm on at all times. I like seeing the other player's scores at all times.
I don't need to see a video clip from a movie, a Yeti bowling, or a mini video game.
Quoted from NM:pinball perfection was attained by Bally-Williams before being killed off by slot machines
Slot machine are the reason why B/W attained perfection! The company had crazy money to spend because one company was holding up the other and the other was SLOTS !
You will never see the quality of a Late B/W again ,it just cost too much!
A large colored score board will not make a ramp shot or combo any easier or harder to make!
Jim
Nope. I would take a long time for the DMDs to depreciate, because even the collectors who would be selling their dmds off to buy the new LCD games, would be selling them to people who are hungry to buy those classic dmd's. I agree with Absocountry completely, maybe if this LCD thing takes off, and pinball see a reemergence with today's youth, then 20 years from now when they have the disposable income to spend, than finally the dmd will seem really outdated and old fashioned.
Quoted from badbilly27:If history is an indicator, The DMD will take a huge hit in the future. 20 years from now when we are not able to move these machines around and the next gen starts to be the ones with disposable income, they will want the pins they grew up playing
maybe if we keep saying lcd's will make dmds go down, 3 times in the mirror in the dark, it will come true.....
I think it all depends upon how the LCD is integrated.
If it's just stuck in the backbox, and there's no tight integration with the game, I don't see that as being a "game changer." However if you look at what WMS has done with LCDs in their slot machines, you can see there is definitely some potential to turn the whole industry around. WMS has transparent LCD screens where you can see things behind the screen and odd-shaped LCDs that work around other areas of hardware. If done right, an LCD doesn't have to be "stuck" in a game, it can be wrapped around other elements and become part of the playfield. Unfortunately, I don't see any current producers (even JJP) being that innovative.
IMO, Nobody has ever come close to the innovation that was exhibited with P2K. I really hope that Wizard Blocks gets finished.
Addendum:
In order for Jack to assure himself to pre-sell 1000 units, he had to shake things up--and position his product as being revolutionary.
An LCD did just that.
It was a brilliant marketing strategy.
Think about it: a 6.5 million dollar interest-free loan.
Quoted from vid1900:I could honestly do without the DMD or LCD.
+1 I've been considering looking to make smaller representations of the display (both SS, but more so DMD) on or around the skirt. There are things on the DMD screens that are salient but I dislike having to look up to see them (number of hits left for a particular villain as an example) at just the right time - which ends up being just about the time the ball moves to the flipper. So you either get some situational awareness just in time to watch your ball drain, or you keep blindly shooting at a target until you think you've got enough hits in. Having a smaller display near the skirt would allow for that quick view without having to take the eyes off the pf
Quoted from PinballHelp:I really hope that Wizard Blocks gets finished.
I do too!
JJ p and Stern will have there own idea's with the LCD,And in time great things will come from it.The classics should hold there own for a good while!
Quoted from NM:IMHO, if I wanted video I'd go play a video game.
For that matter, I rarely even look up at the DMD except for split seconds (unless play stops and I'm forced to look up play a game on the DMD).
Call me Old School but personally I think the 26" LCD is ridiculous. I love existing size of backbox artwork and think the LCD should have been kept the same size as a current DMD (but that would rule out off the shelf availability; and costs would skyrocket). I don't like the idea of walking past my pins and instead of seeing great artwork I see a bunch of dark TV monitors. I like translites/backglasses lit by 555s & flashers. I like emphasizing areas of the artwork with colored LEDs.
Just because something is changed or new and improved doesn't automatically mean better.
Well said Neil.
And Pin2000 didn't exactly make the previous model B/W obsolete, did it?!
Quoted from RobT:And Pin2000 didn't exactly make the previous model B/W obsolete, did it?!
Exactly !
What a bunch of old fuddy duddies. Pinball machines need to evolve like all technology does. I was playing a 8 bit Nintendo when DMD machines come out. Four generations of video game consoles later pinball machines are still DMD machines. Don't get me wrong.. I still love playing a nintendo on occasion but my Xbox 360 is far superior.
So like everything else pinball machines need to evolve with the time or become dinosaurs. They need LCD screens, online leaderboards and stats, the ability to modify the difficult to your skill level, surround sound with sweet bass, etc.
I think Apple should get into the pinball industry.. now there is a company that can freaking innovate.
Quoted from captainadam_21:I think Apple should get into the pinball industry.. now there is a company that can freaking innovate.
Steve has passed on and this is pinball not Nintendo
Quoted from captainadam_21:online leaderboards and stats,
You know if they had online leader boards that would be @@#$@# hella awesome. I think visual pinball or hyperpin may add that to their future release. It is just a fun thing to be able to compete worldwide instead of just in the town you live in..or basement you have the pin in...
Quoted from McCune:In 20 years from now ,people will enjoy the art work over photoshop crap.
I agree, I still love my Centaur and Xenon. They have the best artwork in my collection by far but that does does not make them worth more. For that matter WOZ has some great artwork, not photoshopped.
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