(Topic ID: 17508)

A small rant regarding limited-scope mentality....

By NPO

11 years ago


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  • 80 posts
  • 48 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 years ago by NPO
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    There are 80 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 11 years ago

    I finally bought my first DE (Jurassic Park) after owning 50 ss machines for 20+ years in the hobby and find no difference in quality or play. I've owned Bally, Williams,Stern, Alvin G, Capcon(very nicely put together), and Gottliebs (system 3 are great)and the only difference to me is in the depth of rules. They all have + or -...........I'm just glad some are still affordable. I like them all,play on.
    Bob

    #52 11 years ago

    There are some solid gold games in that list.

    #53 11 years ago

    I never realized Torpedo Alley was a DE. Always assumed it was one of those shitty mid-80's Gottlieb Premiers, LOL.

    TILTed post. Sign in to be able to view TILTed posts.
    #55 11 years ago

    Cant wait till he reads this in 5 years from now...

    Data East...LMFAO

    #56 11 years ago

    I think alot of the stigma period was from late 80s early 90s with B/W was pumping out smash hits. And Old sterns you were told to stay away from just buy B/W they are better I have heard advised from many old timers in this hobby. Then the stigma carries over to new stern as alot of people don't know the difference between new and old stern. Then with all the mergers in the late 90s between sega de and new stern as well as some of old sterns liscencing then the stigma travels to all related company names by a loose rule that your better off just buying a bally or williams machine if you have the choice.

    These are just my thoughts and in the beggining why I avoided sterns. I do not any longer I was a fool. I don't think sega and DE games are as well refined but they certainly know a great title when they find one and they make it a fun game most of the time. Same thing with Gotlieb but you usually need to have modern day grounding fixes first.

    Best of luck with all buying and selling of games

    Life is short guys/gals have fun living it and don't sweat the small stuff.

    #57 11 years ago

    Man, if I loved DE games, why would I want to advertise that they should be priced higher?

    If I loved them, I would verbally trash em every chance I got to keep the price down, all while snatching them up on the sneaks.

    but that's just me...

    #58 11 years ago

    Anyone with a governator avatar is sneeky and "not trusted" .... jk

    #59 11 years ago
    Quoted from MikeS:

    -the gimme multiball on ball 3 for instance

    To each their own -- without the gimme multiball on ball 3 of Jurassic Park, I would have never got into pinball.

    I will say this -- one thing that DE can be knocked for that B/W titles from the same era have to a lesser extent is that DE definitely had a 'formula' that used a lot of the same types of things, specifically modes. They change them up a bit, but they tend to 'feel' more alike than two similar era B/W titles, for instance.

    #60 11 years ago
    Quoted from ThePostmaster:

    B/W flippers suck. They barely get the ball up the ramps.

    What game were you playing to come to this conclusion?

    On a freshly rebuilt set of flippers, I sometimes think the flippers can be TOO strong going up those sweet, solid B/W ramps.

    #61 11 years ago
    Quoted from Tommi_Gunn:

    DE/SEGA was just a clone of williams system 11.

    Knowing both these systems in and out, I'll agree with that statement.

    That being said, tanks are tanks. DE and system 11 Willies are workhorses. 90's Williams/Bally games need a technician's whisper to keep running 100%.

    #62 11 years ago
    Quoted from Firebaall:

    Tommi_Gunn said:DE/SEGA was just a clone of williams system 11.

    Knowing both these systems in and out, I'll agree with that statement.
    That being said, tanks are tanks. DE and system 11 Willies are workhorses. 90's Williams/Bally games need a technician's whisper to keep running 100%.

    So you're saying DE's don't require fresh caps and rectifiers every 10 years to keep them from resetting?

    #63 11 years ago

    No offense, but this discussion is ridiculous.

    Pinball machines are part of the free market. Supply and demand determines the price. You could also say that a machine is worth what people are willing to pay for it. Using Attack From Mars as an example, it sells for $8k+ now because MANY people, in relation to the number of AFMs available, are willing to pay that. No one is paying $8k+ for a Data East/Sega game. In your opinion, a DE/Sega title may be better than AFM. But the majority opinion says otherwise, and they're proving it with their wallets. To say that they are somehow wrong for their opinion doesn't reflect well on you.

    For the record, I don't really care for Attack from Mars or X-Files. But that's just my opinion.

    Oh, and the people saying that DE/Sega games are more reliable than B/W...what!? You think that may be because those B/W machines were played a heck of a lot more?

    #64 11 years ago
    Quoted from Tommi_Gunn:

    Laser War
    Secret Service
    Torpedo Alley
    Time Machine
    Playboy 35th
    Anniversary
    ABC Monday Night
    Football
    Robocop
    Phantom of the Opera
    Back to the Future
    The Simpsons
    Checkpoint
    Teenage Mutant
    Ninja Turtles
    Batman
    Star Trek
    Hook
    Lethal Weapon
    Star Wars
    Rocky & Bullwinkle
    Jurassic Park
    Last Action Hero
    Tales from the Crypt
    The Who's Tommy
    WWF Royal Rumble
    Guns N' Roses
    Maverick Mary Shelly's Frankenstein
    Baywatch
    Batman Forever

    I have been collecting Pinballs for 15 years. I bought most of my pinballs form operators. Between 1997-2000. I would go from bar to bar in my city and in other cities as well just looking for pinballs to play.In most cases they were almost all Midway machines.I had no Idea that they would turn out to be some of the best pinball in history.It was what I was exposed to. I bought SCARED STIFF and JUNK YARD from a national arcade chain that was going under back in 1999. I had not even play or heard of these titles. I called the purchasing agent and was quoted 1450.00 for JY and 1795.00 for SS I said Done get a purchase order ready and went and picked them up.I had no Idea they would turn out 14 years later to be so collectable and fun. One other fun story was SEGA USA had arcades in malls in the late 1990's. One Denver and other major cities.The only coin-op equipment allowed had to be SEGA. I played all of SEGA pinballs they were cool and suave.I had fun as I was leaving the arcade in the ParkMeadows Mall In Denver.They had two Midway machines in the hallway because It was a SEGA arcade they could not be in the arcade proper. The two piballs wre TOTAN & CV. I told my my self Just one more play on each .I stayed so long the security gaurds had to ask me to leave.The next day I was on the Phone to the SEGA corporate office asking if I could buy both TOTAN & CV. 1795.00 ea. Get purchase order ready I said Picked them up two days later.Who new 13 years later how popular and expensive they would become. Later that year I took a trip to Vegas. In the airport lounge there was a STARGATE & Tommy. I had never seen a Gottlieb or a DAtA EAST pinball before . All I knew is that I wanted to buy them both.I still to this day want a TOMMY & STARGATE. It is just a fact that Midway /Williams/Bally mad alot more popular pinballs over the 1990's . You just can not ignore that number ratio. Midway win =) over all. I still own Deta East STARWARS and sold my JunkYard. I will add that who ever designed the G.I lighting at DATA EAST needs to have there head examined. Props to John Borg for still following his passion for game design after DATE EAST was taken over from SEGA. Peace!!

    #65 11 years ago

    Want Tommy In Good shape

    #66 11 years ago
    Quoted from ReplayRyan:

    Using Attack from Mars as an example, it sells for $8k+ now because MANY people, in relation to the number of AFMs available, are willing to pay that. No one is paying $8k+ for a Data East/Sega game. In your opinion, a DE/Sega title may be better than AFM. But the majority opinion says otherwise, and they're proving it with their wallets.

    Watching this discussion explode like wildfire, I was going to sit back and watch, but as usual, when AFM comes up, I have to respond .

    Ok, fair enough, I agree with you on this. I never stated that DE/Sega may be a better game than AFM. What I'm disputing is it is a bit - half-thought-out if you will - to pay $8k for ANY pinball machine. Am I saying that's "the law" - no. I'm saying, subjectively speaking, it is silly to spend that kind of money on a pin. That's just me, and other than TAF and RFM, I will not go above $2k for any pin for a very long time. Will I hold to my guns forever - probably not - but I will as long as I can. So far got 4 pins for about half the price of an AFM, and I'm not nuts nor rich enough to spend $8k on an AFM.

    Short and to the point: AFM is worth the hype but not the price. There NO WAY there's enough game in AFM to justify $8k. People that can afford it - hey - God bless them. They have that kind of money, more power to them. But not all grandiose purchases can possibly be considered wise ones, and $8k on ANY pin - IMHO - is definitely not wise. Most people that pay that kind of money are paying with their hearts, and typically heart ----> wallet.

    #67 11 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Short and to the point: AFM is worth the hype but not the price. There NO WAY there's enough game in AFM to justify $8k. People that can afford it - hey - God bless them. They have that kind of money, more power to them. But not all grandiose purchases can possibly be considered wise ones, and $8k on ANY pin - IMHO - is definitely not wise. Most people that pay that kind of money are paying with their hearts, and typically heart ----> wallet.

    Uh...how many people do you know who have bought an AFM in the last year and a half who have lost a substantial amount of money on that purchase (or any money for that matter)?

    And since $8k on "any pin" is definitely not wise in your opinion, I can only imagine what you think about those of us who own MM and have ordered BHZA.

    If you can't afford the B/W pins that you want, be happy with your Data East pins. Nothing wrong with that, but no need to tell others that they haven't made a wise decision.

    #68 11 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Most people that pay that kind of money are paying with their hearts

    That, or they're just caught up in the d*%k measuring contest of collecting certain pins and want to flex their e-peen...Seriously, $25k for a BBB, c'mon son.

    #69 11 years ago
    Quoted from MikeS:

    Many of the DE designs were copied or heavily influenced by WPC games. JP is heavily copied from Whirlwind, Tommy is copied from Funhouse, Batman Forever is heavily influenced by STTNG, etc. Also, a lot of the DE software leaves something to be desired.-the gimme multiball on ball 3 for instance and the repetitive audio and sound quotes.

    You are absolutely and totally correct on that. I wanted a WW so badly until I saw that JP basically completely mimicked WW's playfield. Since I had already bought JP, with a limited area to put pins, I told myself "Welp, guess I won't own WW." The thought of owning 2 games with nearly identical playfields make me sad .

    Quoted from MikeS:

    I like games like JP, but to compare it to a mechanical masterpiece like TZ or TAF is doing Pat Lawlor a disservice.-especially since it's basically a copy of one of his designs. I think if DE had the design/sound/art/programming staff that Williams/Bally had in the 90's that they would have the most collectible games today. It's not just about the company making the games, it's about the heart and soul of the people that worked there.

    Maybe my point got a bit misconstrued. My comparison and contrasts of DE/Segas and B/W was simply price-checking and maintenance. I'll admit, I'm sure a bit of personal opinion regarding fun factor was thrown in there too. Still, few B/W games will win me over when TFTC comes to life .

    Life is Good .

    #70 11 years ago

    Beyond the necessities, people generally make money to spend money. How they spend it is up to them.

    Those who complain about how others spend their money are usually just wishing they had more money

    #71 11 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    pinballx said:

    Using Attack from Mars as an example, it sells for $8k+ now because MANY people, in relation to the number of AFMs available, are willing to pay that. No one is paying $8k+ for a Data East/Sega game. In your opinion, a DE/Sega title may be better than AFM. But the majority opinion says otherwise, and they're proving it with their wallets.
    Watching this discussion explode like wildfire, I was going to sit back and watch, but as usual, when AFM comes up, I have to respond .
    Ok, fair enough, I agree with you on this. I never stated that DE/Sega may be a better game than AFM. What I'm disputing is it is a bit - half-thought-out if you will - to pay $8k for ANY pinball machine. Am I saying that's "the law" - no. I'm saying, subjectively speaking, it is silly to spend that kind of money on a pin. That's just me, and other than TAF and RFM, I will not go above $2k for any pin for a very long time. Will I hold to my guns forever - probably not - but I will as long as I can. So far got 4 pins for about half the price of an AFM, and I'm not nuts nor rich enough to spend $8k on an AFM.
    Short and to the point: AFM is worth the hype but not the price. There NO WAY there's enough game in AFM to justify $8k. People that can afford it - hey - God bless them. They have that kind of money, more power to them. But not all grandiose purchases can possibly be considered wise ones, and $8k on ANY pin - IMHO - is definitely not wise. Most people that pay that kind of money are paying with their hearts, and typically heart ----> wallet.

    Lots of folks out there willing to spend big money on the things they love.
    People all over spend over five figures on rare collector coins, cars, bikes, sports memorabilia, antiques, etc etc.

    And imo.. pinball is a lot cooler than most of those things.

    #72 11 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Uh...how many people do you know who have bought an AFM in the last year and a half who have lost a substantial amount of money on that purchase (or any money for that matter)?
    And since $8k on "any pin" is definitely not wise in your opinion, I can only imagine what you think about those of us who own MM and have ordered BHZA.

    Well, since I'm three months into the hobby, I honestly can't completely answer your first question with total certainty . Nothing sarcastic here, just simply can't answer it. To maybe expand on it though, two points I will offer.

    One, nearly ANY pin can tell the same tale in terms of "lost a substantial amount" as pretty much anything from 1990+ on has increased in value. AFM is just one of those, as I affectionately tongue-in-cheek have labeled, crude oil pins.

    Two, I buy to collect, enjoy, and repair - not to flip or sell for profit. Not saying you or anyone else does - I'm buying the pins I do for fun and not to sell down the road (for the foreseeable future, I could always get PCS'd and can't take all my pins with me, or I could sell one to get another - which I'm sure MANY people do). Sometimes, I think I tinker and watch the "attract mode" light show more than play honestly ...

    As for your upcoming purchases, I gave you and others praise in terms of your abilities to make those purchases. I gave you the respect and "tip of the hat" to afford such things. Just to me, personally speaking, I won't ever pay that kind of money for any pin. That's all I was saying . I will say though, based on the emoticons used in your quote, I would infer you didn't buy MM back in the early 2000's when they actually were affordable... ?

    Life is Good .

    #73 11 years ago
    Quoted from ReplayRyan:

    Beyond the necessities, people generally make money to spend money. How they spend it is up to them.
    Those who complain about how others spend their money are usually just wishing they had more money

    No argument there. My pay as a 2Lt for being an electrical engineer is - well - lacking in contrast to what I could make as a contractor .

    #74 11 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    If you can't afford the B/W pins that you want, be happy with your Data East pins. Nothing wrong with that, but no need to tell others that they haven't made a wise decision.

    My bad, I totally missed this one. I'll say this, no, I can't afford the big gun pins like AFM, MM, CV, CC, BBB, and others. But I also don't really want any of those I listed - AFM I did until I saw the "crude oil runup" on it and just burned out wanting it. Visual Pinball works great for me, and to there shall I stick with AFM and other expen$ive titles.

    You're right though, my post did come off as a bit condescending in regards to "no need to tell others that they haven't made a wise decision." Totally correct, and for that, I apologize. I can see where that could be interpreted as what I said, and I offer my apology on that. What I meant was - based on my budget - any pin over $8k = not a wise investment. And I want to state, without pounding my chest and going all macho-crap, I can afford some games I want like TAF. No doubt, I can't afford AFM and the rest of that list, but I can get a TZ/TAF/TOM/WH2O if I desire. I'm just not willing to throw that kind of $$$ around - yet. If I leave the military and make nearly triple what I should be making as an electrical engineer, that could change .

    Life is Good .

    Hope I cleared that up, and I don't want to be making any enemies, especially for something like that.

    #75 11 years ago

    NPO, were you on a debate team? Seriously though, I feel ya. I think many of us tire of seeing pins go for that kind of money, but as long as people keep paying it....

    I would if I could, but I can't.

    #76 11 years ago

    Post edited by FlipperMagician : double post, delete

    #77 11 years ago
    Quoted from FlipperMagician:

    NPO, were you on a debate team?

    I debate far better on a forum when I can really think things through. Growing up, I "ready fire aimed!" with my mouth, and yeah, that cost me my integrity and my pride quite a number of times . I learned what "not to do" now .

    As for today, I think things VERY thoroughly through when talking to people and listen more than I hear. I think that's a big problem in today's world. It's not that we don't talk, it's just that no one really listens...

    Life is Good

    #78 11 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Life is Good

    I agree.
    If we are doing well enough to be able to afford even ONE pinball machine, then we're doing alright.

    Life is good.

    Working on a deal for a nice BSD right now. Nothing gets my pulse running like that game!

    #79 11 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    I debate far better on a forum when I can really think things through. Growing up, I "ready fire aimed!" with my mouth, and yeah, that cost me my integrity and my pride quite a number of times . I learned what "not to do" now .

    As for today, I think things VERY thoroughly through when talking to people and listen more than I hear. I think that's a big problem in today's world. It's not that we don't talk, it's just that no one really listens...

    Life is Good []

    Life IS good, isn't it We own pinball machines!

    But really, I do know where you're coming from. Our words will always get all misconstrued by some, especially in a forum like this. The thing about opinions is just that....they're only opinions and everyone has different ones.

    Anyone else a Bill Burr fan? One of my favorite quotes from him:

    "I'm just passionate about my opinions and I want to tell you all of them before you start talking again."

    #80 11 years ago
    Quoted from FlipperMagician:

    NewPinOwner said:I debate far better on a forum when I can really think things through. Growing up, I "ready fire aimed!" with my mouth, and yeah, that cost me my integrity and my pride quite a number of times . I learned what "not to do" now .
    As for today, I think things VERY thoroughly through when talking to people and listen more than I hear. I think that's a big problem in today's world. It's not that we don't talk, it's just that no one really listens...
    Life is Good []
    Life IS good, isn't it We own pinball machines!
    But really, I do know where you're coming from. Our words will always get all misconstrued by some, especially in a forum like this. The thing about opinions is just that....they're just opinions and everyone has different ones.
    Anyone else a Bill Burr fan? One of my favorite quotes from him:
    "I'm just passionate about my opinions and I want to tell you all of them before you start talking again."

    Totally agree with both of you !

    There are 80 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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