This is not directed towards any one person here in this thread or on Pinside, so I'm just going to flat-out say it: People need to get over this "Oh mmmmmmmmmmmmmmaaannn, it's made by Daitah EEEEEEASSSSSSTTTT" crap.

Where does this huge chubby for B/W come from? Is it the fact that all the "oo oo oo gimmie gimmie gimmie A-Title!!!" games are all B/W ...? Or is it because almost everyone's first game is a B/W..? I'm only 3 months into this hobby so maybe I've missed it - but really - the bashing of DE just because it says "Data East" on it is so silly...

I'm serious dude, I'm going on 2 DE's/1 Sega (XF when it gets here), and 1 B/W - and my DE's have been pretty darn good. Sure, I've had to adjust a switch in the ball trough here or a switch in the JP bunkers there or change - heaven forbid - one fuse in TFTC. My JM is solid but not all perfect either - I would flat-out say my DE's have stood well with JM so far. Sure, the DE's may have a tendency to break a bit more than B/W, but for crying out loud if my DE's go down a total of twice a year versus once for B/W - is the DE hate REALLY justified...?

DE's are PRETTY darn solid lil' machines. While quality may be better than DEs, B/W sure as heck aren't bullet proof - 3 of their "A-list titles": TZ, TAF, and STTNG and even one of their B-list titles BSD have a decent reputation for troubles. STTNG: optos up the wazoo. TAF: 1 word: magnets. TZ: *says in a British accent* CLOCK. And BSD: optos and magnets for the myst ball.

Heck, I'll even tear at my titles. JP: The TREX assembly. XFiles: the filing cabinet/magnet assembly. TFTC: The DMD is known for acting up

So, both DE's and B/W's have problems - thing is - DE's are way cheaper than B/W. With the exception of BSD, all three B/W titles I've mentioned thwart JP, TFTC, and XF - and TFTC is arguably one of DE's "best games" with JP not being too far behind.

Break this down a bit using Boston Pinball as a quick reference (which there's NO WAY these prices are up-to-date :

B/W prices
TAF avg price: $3383
TZ " ": $3313
STTNG " ": $2389
BSD " ": $1240

Avg price of all 4: $2581.25

DE prices
JP avg price: $1517
TFTC avg price: $1460
XF (Sega, I know, Sega = DE): $1228

And just to make it interesting, I'll throw DE's two other crown jewel titles just to make it a bit more fair: Tommy and GNR

Tommy avg price: $1787
GNR: $2943

Avg price of all 5: $1787, or of DE's highest 4 to be fair with sample size: $1926.75

So: the average price difference between sample size B/W(4) - DE(4) = $654.50 - and I didn't even compare "top shelf games B/W" vs "top shelf games DE" - imagine if I compared MM, AFM, and TAF against TFTC, Tommy, and GNR - that avg price difference would probably quadruple.

So, what are B/W collectors paying $654+ for....? B/Ws tend to break down just as DE. I just don't get not only paying more for B/Ws but also selling "because it says 'Data East' on it" mentality. Seriously.....

On a lighter note, thank you to all who "buy only B/W because all the cool people do" or "I only buy B/W because they're the Mercedes of pins and everything else is crap" - thank you - you have helped me keep the cost of buying my DE/Sega games WAY down :).

Life is Good :).

I thought you said a small rant?

But you have to agree that XF is priced lower for a reason, kinda of skews the results if you're comparing a TZ to TFTC (or XF for that matter).

It was :D!

Nibbles said:

Attachments url.jpg (38.6 KB, 0 downloads) 1 minute old

I actually LOL'd here when I saw that.

This is far more appropriate if you want to make fun of me ;):

Nibbles said:

But you have to agree that XF is priced lower for a reason, kinda of skews the results if you're comparing a TZ to TFTC (or XF for that matter).

I did...see my sample size of (4) comparison avg price . I actually did that to get the results more exact. The $654 takes in accounting for JP, TFTC, Tommy, and GNR.

ALL of my DE games were and are solid as a rock....

I have had more trouble with my B/W's stuff that i ever had wit a DE or Sega, or Stern's...

And i think that they are every bit as fun, if not more fun than the B/W's titles...

Your rant was spot on !

Bravo !

i have owned 2 de pins.Royal Rumble and Lethal Weapon 3. lw3 is still one of the funnest pins i have ever played. and Royal Rumble, its one of the best bang for your buck pins out there imo. i have no issue with any brand of game. if i find it fun that's enough for me.

NewPinOwner said:

Where does this huge chubby for B/W come from?

It's because most of them have really awesome gameplay.

The sounds, the shots, the jackpots,....they're just wayyy better.

I don't know what else to tell ya man. All pinballs are NOT created equal.

NewPinOwner said:

This is far more appropriate if you want to make fun of me ;):
Attachments Badass.jpg (49.2 KB, 0 downloads) 38 minutes old

LMAO... I never understood all the brand loyalty. I pay absolutely no attention to who made it. I focus all my attention on seeing if I like it and think it is a fun pin.

I leave the brand loyalty to the snobs. I'm sure some will chime in soon enough. The good part is they will never desire (due to their snobbery) some of the great pins out there keeping the price down.

NewPinOwner said:

Where does this huge chubby for B/W come from?

I haven't been in the game long enough to have owned a mix of all manufacturers to weigh in with my own opinion on the quality of each. But I do subscribe to the...if it's a fun pin just buy it theory!
But I can say that a local operator here who had 150 pins back in the 90's told me the first pins to go when he needed to downsize were all the DE's, Sega's, and Gottliebs....... I'm sure he wasn't the only operator to do the exact same thing.

Cam said:

....the first pins to go when he needed to downsize were all the DE's, Sega's, and Gottliebs....... I'm sure he wasn't the only operator to do the exact same thing.

But.....why D: ?

NewPinOwner said:

Cam said:

....the first pins to go when he needed to downsize were all the DE's, Sega's, and Gottliebs....... I'm sure he wasn't the only operator to do the exact same thing.
But.....why D: ?

He basically said the DE's, Sega's, and Gottliebs cost more in money and time to keep working and didn't bring in the the coin in the cashbox like the B/W games did. I would have to imagine there were exceptions to that! As if a GNR wouldn't bring in more dough than a Popeye in any location! Even if the GNR was dirty and had some issues.......

NewPinOwner said:

But.....why D: ?

You're still New. you'll figure it out.

My DE do not seem to break more than the BW stuff.

RawleyD said:

It's because most of them have really awesome gameplay.

The sounds, the shots, the jackpots,....they're just wayyy better.

I don't know what else to tell ya man. All pinballs are NOT created equal.

Yip i agree on a whole...and you wont find a single bash against DE from me.

Im not a hater at all and sometimes feel if you say you like this game over that you all of a sudden are labelled a basher??

I buy the games i like the most,brand name is nothing..just so happens there's alot more bally/williams games i like ahead of sega/DE or even Stern.

I could very happily have a Jurassic Park,GnR,Baywatch or FREDDY but with the limited amount of spaces i have in my collection and how many more titles i like above these games,their probably just not gonna make the cut

I buy anything that I think is worth asking price. Might even buy a newer Gottlieb tomorrow.

If money is not a factor in the DE vs B/W argument there is no argument. The fact of the matter is B/W made better games and more of them than DE/Sega. I think Tommy,GNR, POTO, JP,TFTC are great games but thats a short list in comparison.

I demand a recount errr run off errr I don't know what I'm demanding but I demand it, dam it!

I've had several DE pins and I will have more. They seem like good machines to me. I've had no more trouble with one brand than another. I think on average the B/W tittles have much deeper rulesets and that's a big part of what people are paying for.

It's preference. But most will hop on the B/W wagon becouse "there the best"

Quite honestly there are a whole bunch of EM's and SS games I'd rather have over DE/Sega DMD games.They've found there place in pinball history......and it's not anywhere near what B/W accomplished in the 90's.It is what it is.Scott

Here's my rant... Get over what other people like. What a waste of time. If someone just likes b/w or Stern who gives a shit. It's having an opinion and the fact people get bent out of shape about it shows a similar intellectual inflexibility that they rail against in the first place.

williams has great quality, I have two. I also have a DE and I love it. I think there's pluses to every pin. I really love many of the DE pins, you have to love the huge DMD displays on Baywatch and Frankenstein. Also DE has a really great simple locking mechanism for the backbox (turn a screw), as apposed to williams which uses a hook that could potentially pop. Also I believe it was DE that started putting the bubble level in the playfield.

I think DE gets crap because they weren't around very long, so people assume they weren't any good.

http://i.imgur.com/UmpOi.gif

I don't rip on DE but I just don't buy them. That should be OK with you. It's not all about cost and durability. Some of us who have played all our life just like the feel of them.

Enjoy what games *you* like, and *you* want to have around.

I will feel free to do the same

I've owned DEs... TFTC, WWF RR, GNR, Simpsons, and they weren't bad games. I wish I still had the GNR!

I say, be glad the majority flys the snob flag when it comes to pinball. It means you don't have the same competition to aquire great titles, for a reasonable price.

NewPinOwner said:

Where does this huge chubby for B/W come from?

When I was playing most of my pinball (late 80's early 90's) I saw 90% B/W machines, so that's what I'm more familiar with.

Enjoy the lower prices of the DE/Sega games if you like them.

When people talk about B/W quality, I haven't interpreted it as referring to them being more reliable (whichever manufacturer is mentioned, we're dealing with 15+ years old machines that were intended to go a few years, after all), but instead having a more solid "feel."

That's a subjective thing by nature. Could be the flipper patents, the parts differences, build process differences, or nothing at all. I definitely feel a difference and prefer it, and have had non-pinheads remark on it to me, but it wouldn't stop me from pursuing other pins. Pros and cons, etc. If a person doesn't notice a difference and can thus get the same experience and more bang for the buck from DE, cool.

c3trey said:

I definitely feel a difference and prefer it, and have had non-pinheads remark on it to me, but it wouldn't stop me from pursuing other pins

A buddy of mine who is not a pinhead but I'm trying to convert, remarked after playing my TSPP that "This one feels different." "How so?" "I don't know, maybe the flippers, it just feels different." I found that interesting as I said nothing at all to lead him to that statement, and he might not have even noticed that it's not a B/W machine.

Bally/Williams games definitely feel smoother and more polished. I've always thought it was in the flipper designs. I still buy, collect, and play earlier SS, Data East, Stern, etc. Variety of pins and play are the spices of life. No need to rant. Just buy what you like.

Michael

Isn't it really more a matter of TZ and TAF and WH20 and MB and MM and TOM and the other B/W titles being superior games to XF and JP and TFTC? GnR is a good game, and I think is highly respected as such. Tommy gets plenty of love.

This all reminds me of the Turbo Grafx 16 vs Super Nintendo debates me and my friends used to have. lol been there done that. I don't care who made what or why. As long as I have fun playing the game that I purchased with my money, who cares?

BTW I will buy a DE Time Machine from someone if they don't want it anymore.

Be happy. If you like DE and Sega games, they are more affordable than BLY or WMS. I'm an Em collector myself, everybody in the EM world seems to hate Chicago Coin machines. I like CC games, but am not a huge fun of GTB (who's games are typically the most expensive), I can buy a CC very cheap and I'm thrilled.
Buy what you like, and be happy the prices are lower, especially right now since people are obviously smoking crack with their prices.

The Gottlieb/Premier games are solid as a rock too. when I was younger I had about 18 ppins set up and playing in my basement, 10 of them were dmds. My gottlieb Gladiators (which happened to be my first game) never once had any problems AND it was a reimport! They're heavy as hell but can be a lot of fun, and can be very reliable.

RawleyD said:

NewPinOwner said:Where does this huge chubby for B/W come from?
It's because most of them have really awesome gameplay.
The sounds, the shots, the jackpots,....they're just wayyy better.
I don't know what else to tell ya man. All pinballs are NOT created equal.

Have to agree with Rawley here.

B/W also have a feel to them that is pretty distinct from DE pins.

Bottom line: the free market has set B/W pins at higher prices than DE pins for a reason.

Outstanding answers guys. I just have been watching a decent number of people rip on games "just because it says Data East on it", and man, I just had enough of it. Was this a rant or a "call out" ..? Both - more a rant I'd say. I just wanted to hear what everyone else had to say.

And I am DEFINITELY happy that most people are going after the B/W; it just does kind make me go "really...?" when those people also have to be a bit brash with DE while they're popping $4k+ on *insert your B/W game name here*. I am totally good with people buying B/W and leaving DE/Sega to me: my XF, JP, and TFTC ($4800 combined) cost me as much as a showroom TZ, a respectable TAF, or a 60% downpayment on a AFM. I'll take 3 B-title pins over 1 A-title pin any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I'm glad this didn't turn into a flame-war; I honestly did not want it to nor did I originally make the OP to incite one. Just being new and seeing th amount of bashing DE games get with no clear reason to me - it got annoying.

Life is Good :).

While Data East pins may not be the worst one built, They just don't have the feel that a good Bally or Williams pin has. I'd probably take a system 80 or later Gottlieb over a D/E pin. I never really liked the art, sound or themes on their pins. The only one I might want would be Time Machine, but other than that, I'd take just about any other brand pin (all dependent on which machine it was).

Gottlieb games were built amazingly and rarely broke down, but they also didn't take in much coin so not many were sold / routed.
Data East games were huge flashes in the pan. They often had quality control issues that made their route lives really short, although they earned really well when they could be kept up. Sadly, that usually didn't last too long, so most DE machines weren't on route for a while.
B/W games landed right in the middle. Their quality was good enough that once they were tweaked from the factory, they tended to stay running for a long time. They earned decently too.

So... B/W titles tended to stay on route the longest, as they offered the best coin for the rate of repair. This influenced the market in two direct ways. The first is B/W games in the secondary (op) market sold for more back in the day because they were still pulling in the coins, while DE and Gottlieb titles got cheaper quickly because they didn't.

The second way is that because of this, when people remember the games they used to play, they are the most likely to remember and have fond memories of the B/W title they played instead of the DE or Gottlieb title they played. I fell in love with JP first, but within six months of me starting to play it, I didn't know where any were any more. I can still find multiple MMs on route in the city, as well as MBs and a number of other B/W titles including a Fun House.

When I go to pick out a machine, I'm most likely to want a B/W title like what I have been playing. Add to that ops used to want to keep them for their coin pulling value, and they commanded a higher price back then. Now, while there isn't a ton of op to home B/W sales going on, the holdover is that they still command those higher prices... and that new pin owners still are the most likely to want a B/W title unless they are going for something new.

I think that if you expand your horizons, there are a ton of great DE, Sega and Gottlieb titles out there -- but when you are going off memory, it's hard to pick machines you've never played before.

NewPinOwner said:

People need to get over this "Oh mmmmmmmmmmmmmmaaannn, it's made by Daitah EEEEEEASSSSSSTTTT" crap.
Where does this huge chubby for B/W come from? Is it the fact that all the "oo oo oo gimmie gimmie gimmie A-Title!!!"
I'm serious dude, I'm going on 2 DE's/1 Sega (XF when it gets here),

Nothing wrong with coming out strong on your thoughts & your opinions, & I appricaite it. It is a little spastic, but I like an opinion piece.

What I will tell you about my DE "bashing" comes from my personal opinion on playing a ton of pins over the last 20+ years. I worked at an arcade and played pinball every day for years and years.....all differernt kinds. The "love" for W/B comes from their games "feeling" a ton better than DE games, always have, always will. DE have always felt more clunky, and the art is usually worse. I'll always take plastic ramps over Metal ramps too.

Your original post seems to only be skewed to owning/working on pins, not playing them. The problem is, I don't think most people talk about how they break all the time do they? The usually complain the titles aren't as good as B/W.

I understand your point, and I think their probably is a small amount of "go along with the herd" mentality when it comes to this subject, but just make sure you don't stick your neck out too far about it. I like a couple DE just fine. GNfR, JP, LAH, all fun games. But they are a lower tier to me. Then Sega came around.

Take the XF for example, now that is just a brutaly horrible machine. Would I rather have an XF over a JM, another title I think is just pathetic? Being even I'd take a JM I guess. What does that have to do with anything? No idea...blood sugar low...gotta eat something.

girloveswaffles said:

They just don't have the feel that a good Bally or Williams pin has

I beg to differ on this one. B/W flippers suck. They barely get the ball up the ramps. DE by far has the best flippers.

It all comes down to personal preference. I love my DE games. But I do like flippers strong enough to make the shot.

I've owned a few Williams, and except for RFM, my DE's got played way more on location than them.

Williams games were:

junkyard, No Fear, Rollergames

DE games:

TFTC, JP, Goldeneye, LW3, and as soon as my sound card gets here WWF (people are playing it anyways)

They all have pluses and minuses. I prefer my DE games, but I don't go bashing any other maker either (except for this post).

ThePostmaster said:

I beg to differ on this one. B/W flippers suck. They barely get the ball up the ramps.

Even when freshly rebuilt and proper flipper coils were installed? I played Rollergames alot when new and had no issues with the flips. I agree with the fliptronics era games having a weaker, more hollow feel towards them as opposed to the system 11's but they aren't "weak" when new.

DE Star Wars
B Cirqus Voltaire

I have both and i love them like my children, but not in the same way.

DE flippers are realllly strong. Full rebuild with new parts makes it so much better. Rule set is what it is so no need to rehash that argument. Art is very "data east" but has some charm you cant ignore. It was my first pin and i have a special place for it in my heart. Haters gona hate on DE... let them do that till i get my GNR, Tommy, and JP. Plus new rom on its way shortly!!!

CV is my new toy. I wouldnt say it has "more problems" then SW but it is for sure much more complicated to work on. Feels like im working on my 99 vette as opposed to the 69 camaro... same stuff but more tricky. Yes it is 5 years newer but still its more than that. Flippers are way different but work on the pin the way it was designed. Rule set is much deaper and the art is second to none IMHO. I do like the W/B bumper pan design more and will likley change SW to these type as they seem more responsive.

My collection will grow and i am sure will contain examples of each. However, i dont have any plans to buy a grot because ive seen the work that has to be done to rebuild a SG and it seems very strange.

A noobs 2 cents... Please disregard

never had a problem with b/w flippers being too weak. Unless total crap machine

ThePostmaster said:

girloveswaffles said:They just don't have the feel that a good Bally or Williams pin has
I beg to differ on this one. B/W flippers suck. They barely get the ball up the ramps. DE by far has the best flippers.
It all comes down to personal preference. I love my DE games. But I do like flippers strong enough to make the shot.
I've owned a few Williams, and except for RFM, my DE's got played way more on location than them.
Williams games were:
junkyard, No Fear, Rollergames
DE games:
TFTC, JP, Goldeneye, LW3, and as soon as my sound card gets here WWF (people are playing it anyways)
They all have pluses and minuses. I prefer my DE games, but I don't go bashing any other maker either (except for this post).

Did you rebuild them or just play a 20 yr old game? I've never had an issue with a properly maintained game making the shots.

My first pin was DE SW. It was a good way to get started in the hobby and I really do enjoy the game. I was able to get a fully shopped one with an immaculate playfield at a very good price. The biggest limitation is the rule set which has a scoring imbalance problem. You can get great scores by doing nothing but shooting the ramp all day. A Pinsider is now writing new code to fix this.

DE is a good way to enter the hobby at a lower price and still be in the DMD era. After playing the daylights out of this machine, I am comfortable ordering a WOZ ECLE. Kind of like taking the training wheels off!

I don't think it's a case of limited scope mentality or even of game quality. I've had around 8-10 of the top DE and Sega games cycle through my collection and they are just as reliable and nearly as solid feeling as my WPC games. I think the area where DE was lacking compared to the top WPC games was in the ingenuity and the talent level of the people designing and programming the games. Guys like Kaminkow, Borg and Seckel were/are pretty good designers but honestly I think guys like Pat Lawlor, Steve Ritchie, and Brian Eddy were much more creative in their games. Many of the DE designs were copied or heavily influenced by WPC games. JP is heavily copied from Whirlwind, Tommy is copied from Funhouse, Batman Forever is heavily influenced by STTNG, etc. Also, a lot of the DE software leaves something to be desired.-the gimme multiball on ball 3 for instance and the repetitive audio and sound quotes. My favorite DE games is Tommy and I think a big reason for that is because Lyman Sheets did the software.

I like games like JP, but to compare it to a mechanical masterpiece like TZ or TAF is doing Pat Lawlor a disservice.-especially since it's basically a copy of one of his designs. I think if DE had the design/sound/art/programming staff that Williams/Bally had in the 90's that they would have the most collectible games today. It's not just about the company making the games, it's about the heart and soul of the people that worked there.

ThePostmaster said:

B/W flippers suck. They barely get the ball up the ramps.

It's called a flipper rebuild kit. Try it and i'am sure you make them ramp shots. Also PF pitch has alot to it as well. To say they suck, is a little harsh and shows how much of a novice you are with that statement.

NewPinOwner said:

I just have been watching a decent number of people rip on games "just because it says Data East on it", and man, I just had enough of it. Was this a rant or a "call out" ..?

You must have to much time on your hands. It's pinball folks, who cares who makes it, as long as its a good player and theme is all I'am concerned about.

TheLaw said:

never had a problem with b/w flippers being too weak.

Me either! .

I'd hate to come across as harsh on this topic, but seriously people. I mean no offense to DE/SEGA owners. I am the proud owner of a R&B. I really like the game. I wanted one cartoon theme and R&B beat out the rest. BTTF isn't bad either. I give props and slam all company's equally. It's not just DE/SEGA. I do slam my own titles, and I take none of it personal. Their amusement games. I could care less.

In all of pinball, I think there are about 25 games worth buying. DE has 2.

Anyways, I can't believe anyone is defending these games. Are you kidding me? The list is atrocious. Like B-movie, horrific bad. DE/SEGA was just a clone of williams system 11. They do have great flipper action though. I'll give them props for that. Don't get me started on the maintenance issues. The tiles, artwork, audio, and gameplay are enough. I have played every game on this list.

Laser War
Secret Service
Torpedo Alley
Time Machine
Playboy 35th
Anniversary
ABC Monday Night
Football
Robocop
Phantom of the Opera
Back to the Future
The Simpsons
Checkpoint
Teenage Mutant
Ninja Turtles
Batman
Star Trek
Hook
Lethal Weapon
Star Wars
Rocky & Bullwinkle
Jurassic Park
Last Action Hero
Tales from the Crypt
The Who's Tommy
WWF Royal Rumble
Guns N' Roses
Maverick Mary Shelly's Frankenstein
Baywatch
Batman Forever

Man, that's a shitty list. Container of boat anchors. It not worth defending, but, if you like them, that's all that matters. Everyone views things differently, from newbies to vets. When you put it out there, people are going agree or disagree with you. That's something you can't control.

Do what makes you happy. Don't worry what other people say. It's just an opinion. To hell with everyone else. Enjoy it, if that's what you like.